So many AIs. Such little time

OK. I’ve got back to playing with OpenRouter today and I think I have it working in chat, at the command line and in VS Code.

I note there are lots of free models. I was wondering how they compare to the paid versions. (e.g. DeepSeek v4 Pro vs DeepSeek v4 Flash (free). Any experience, @techman?

Also, inspired by @Belfry’s comments, I’ve created a Claude account and agree that while its response is slower than various options offered through Perplexity the answers are better. (?mixture of experts takes a while to come to a consensus.)

Claude has three tiers to choose from Opus, Sonnet and Haiku. Opus is the most expensive and Haiku the least. The costs ratios are 5:3:1. Sonnet is the workhorse and that has worked OK for me. A Claude subscription does not include an API key although this is available as a separate item.

I’ll continue to dabble in the various options in this new world (Note to self: Resist the urge, at least for the time being, to go YOLO mode) and would be interested in others’ views in this rapidly changing arena.

They’re all Free as in Opensource, but you have to pay for the resources to host those massive frontier models unless you’ve got a rack of H100’s out the back in your secret tech room ?

But the wife might notice that 132KV power feeder that’s just been connected to your house :wink:

However as the resources of power, rent and water are in China where everything is vastly cheaper than in the USA, DeepSeek v4 Pro is 75 times cheaper than chatGPT.

I used it a lot this week and the bill is $0.16 USD.

Bear in mind tho, that Fabric provided a ‘chatbot’ experience at the CLI, and chatbots are cheap.

Vibe coding is not cheap, but I don’t do any of that. I only use my AI facility for research, but my brain is the boss how that’s applied.

Ah yes, free, as Stallman stated, “Free software is a matter of liberty, not price. To understand the concept, you should think of ‘free’ as in ‘free speech,’ not as in ‘free beer.’”

True, so the AI is free unlike a proprietary one where you pay to use the AI, plus all the support costs of power and cooling etc.

With a Free AI, you only pay for the latter.

We are already seeing the benefits of Free AI, as people are making smaller Deepseek-v4-Flash versions that can be run at home on a setup like mine, and apparently the performance is incredible.

e.g.

DwarfStar 4

DwarfStar 4 is a small native inference engine specific for DeepSeek V4 Flash. It is intentionally narrow: not a generic GGUF runner, not a wrapper around another runtime: it is completely self-contained. Other than running the model in a correct and fast way, the project goal is to provide DS4 specific loading, prompt rendering, tool calling, KV state handling (RAM and on-disk), server API and integrated coding agent, all ready to work with coding agents or with the provided CLI interface. There are also tools for GGUF and imatrix generation, and for quality and speed testing.

@techman, I think “I’m holding it wrong”.

Following up on the free versus proprietary models I recalled some of the US AI companies complaining that the Chinese were using US models to “distill” their own.

I ran this question through DeepSeek on OpenRouter. DS Flash complained about needing to upload my API key but Pro was happy to use my OpenRouter credits. The output is appended. (Note: I was particularly thinking of the hypocrisy mentioned in the summary - “OpenAI’s own history of arguing “fair use” for training on copyrighted data could undermine its legal position”.)

The query is somewhat involved and cost me 10 cents. Subsequent simpler questions cost one or two cents. This seems more expensive than that which you have found.

ds4 looks promising but I would still need to make some serious investments in hardware.


We support the following backends:

  • Metal is our primary target. Starting from MacBooks with 96GB of RAM.
  • NVIDIA CUDA with special care for the DGX Spark.
  • AMD ROCm is only supported in the rocm branch. It is kept separate from main since I (antirez) don’t have direct hardware access, so the community rebases the branch as needed.

AI Chat Playground - Compare AI Models Side by Side | OpenRouter

In recent court cases some AI America co

User - –

In recent court cases some AI America companies complained that some Chinese companies were training on their servers. What were the details?

Assistant - –

User - –

In recent court cases some AI America companies complained that some Chinese companies were training on their servers. What were the details?

Assistant - –

U.S. AI Companies Accusing Chinese Firms of Unauthorized “Distillation” — The Full Picture

There isn’t a single “court case” per se, but rather a multi-front campaign in early 2026 in which leading American AI companies have formally accused Chinese AI labs of illicitly extracting model capabilities. The complaints have played out through Congressional memos, public technical disclosures, a White House crackdown memo, proposed legislation, and a major DOJ criminal indictment. Below is a detailed breakdown.


1. OpenAI’s Memo to Congress (Feb 12, 2026)

What happened: OpenAI sent a formal memo to the U.S. House Select Committee on Strategic Competition with the Chinese Communist Party, accusing DeepSeek of systematic “distillation.”

Key allegations:

  • DeepSeek engaged in “ongoing efforts to free-ride on the capabilities developed by OpenAI and other US frontier labs.”

  • DeepSeek employees developed code to programmatically access U.S. AI models and harvest outputs for training.

  • They used “obfuscated third-party routers” to mask the origin of API traffic and circumvent access restrictions.

  • The distillation attempts involved “new, obfuscated methods” that evolved in sophistication as OpenAI hardened its defenses.

  • OpenAI claimed DeepSeek also used third-party routers to access models from Anthropic, Google, and xAI.

  • The memo warned that distilled models often strip away safety guardrails, creating national security risks in areas like bioweapons and cyber operations.

OpenlyAI stated this was an update to an earlier assessment it provided in March 2025, shortly after DeepSeek’s R1 model shocked markets.


2. Anthropic’s Public Technical Disclosure (Feb 23, 2026)

What happened: Anthropic published a detailed blog post (“Detecting and Preventing Distillation Attacks”) identifying three named Chinese AI labs and providing granular forensic evidence.

Click to expand — Detailed breakdown by company

| Company | Scale of Operation | Specific Tactics |

|—|—|—|

| DeepSeek | 150,000+ exchanges | Synchronized traffic across accounts; shared payment methods; “load balancing” to increase throughput and avoid detection |

| Moonshot AI (maker of Kimi) | 3.4 million+ exchanges | Hundreds of fraudulent accounts across multiple access pathways; later attempted to extract and reconstruct Claude’s reasoning traces; attribution confirmed via request metadata matching public profiles of senior Moonshot staff |

| MiniMax | 13 million+ exchanges (largest campaign) | Detected while still active; pivoted within 24 hours of a new Claude model release, redirecting nearly half its traffic to capture new capabilities |

Aggregate numbers:

  • ~24,000 fraudulent accounts created

  • Over 16 million exchanges with Claude

  • Used “hydra cluster” architectures — sprawling networks of fake accounts distributed across Anthropic’s API and third-party cloud platforms (e.g., one proxy network managed 20,000+ fraudulent accounts simultaneously)

  • Targeted areas: complex reasoning, coding assistance, tool use, and agentic capabilities

How they circumvented restrictions: Claude is not commercially available in China. The labs used commercial proxy services that resell access to Western AI models, routing traffic to mask origin.


3. The Supermicro Criminal Indictment (March 19, 2026)

This is the only actual court case in this saga. The DOJ unsealed an indictment charging three individuals tied to Super Micro Computer, Inc. (SMCI) with conspiring to illegally divert AI servers to China.

Click to expand — Indictment details

Defendants:

  • Yih-Shyan “Wally” Liaw (71) — SMCI co-founder, board member, SVP of Business Development (U.S. citizen, arrested in California)

  • Ruei-Tsang “Steven” Chang (53) — General manager of SMCI’s Taiwan office (Taiwan citizen, remains a fugitive)

  • Ting-Wei “Willy” Sun (44) — Third-party broker/“fixer” (Taiwan citizen, arrested)

The scheme:

  1. Servers with advanced Nvidia GPUs were assembled in the U.S.

  2. Shipped to SMCI’s Taiwan facilities

  3. Forwarded to a pass-through company in Southeast Asia

  4. Repackaged into unmarked boxes and smuggled to end customers in China

  5. Thousands of “dummy” servers (non-working physical replicas) were staged at storage sites to deceive SMCI’s compliance team and U.S. Commerce Department inspectors

Scale:

  • ~$2.5 billion worth of servers diverted between 2024–2025

  • At least $510 million diverted in a ~3-week window (late April to mid-May 2025) alone

  • Liaw allegedly pushed the Southeast Asian front company to adopt Nvidia B200 (Blackwell architecture) chips in late 2024

  • Liaw allegedly urged speeding up shipments to beat an impending export rule change

Charges:

  • Conspiracy to violate the Export Controls Reform Act (max 20 years)

  • Conspiracy to smuggle goods from the U.S. (max 5 years)

  • Conspiracy to defraud the U.S. (max 5 years)

SMCI’s response: The company was not indicted. Liaw and Chang were placed on administrative leave; Sun’s contract was terminated. SMCI stated it is “cooperating fully” and maintains a “robust compliance program.”


4. The Nvidia Blackwell Angle (Feb 23, 2026)

In a related development, a senior Trump administration official told Reuters that DeepSeek’s latest model was trained on Nvidia Blackwell chips — the most advanced AI chip, whose export to China is banned. The chips were reportedly clustered at DeepSeek’s data center in Inner Mongolia. The official also stated that DeepSeek’s model “likely relied on distillation of models made by Anthropic, Google, OpenAI, and xAI.”


5. Legislative Response: The “Deterring American AI Model Theft Act” (April 15, 2026)

Rep. Bill Huizenga (R-MI) introduced H.R. 8283, which would:

  • Direct the State Department to identify foreign entities conducting “model extraction attacks”

  • Authorize discretionary sanctions (via IEEPA) against identified offenders

  • Create a “name and shame” list of AI thieves

  • Establish a framework for industry-government intelligence sharing on distillation attacks

  • Exempt legitimate distillation (with model owner approval) from penalties

The bill received unanimous bipartisan support in the House Foreign Affairs Committee. Huizenga stated: “Model extraction attacks are the latest frontier of Chinese economic coercion and theft of U.S. intellectual property.”


6. White House Crackdown Memo (April 24, 2026)

White House Chief Science and Technology Advisor Michael Kratsios issued a memo vowing to:

  • Work with American AI companies to identify distillation activities

  • Build defenses against extraction attacks

  • Punish offenders through coordinated government action

  • Singled out entities “principally based in China” for “deliberate, industrial-scale campaigns”


Key Distinction: No Civil Lawsuits (Yet)

Despite the severity of the allegations, neither OpenAI nor Anthropic has filed a civil lawsuit against DeepSeek, MiniMax, or Moonshot AI. The practical obstacles are significant:

  • Chinese companies operating primarily outside U.S. jurisdiction

  • Unclear whether AI model outputs are protected by copyright (the U.S. Copyright Office requires human authorship)

  • OpenAI’s own terms of service assign ownership of outputs to the user, not OpenAI

  • OpenAI’s own history of arguing “fair use” for training on copyrighted data could undermine its legal position

Instead, the U.S. strategy has relied on: (1) Congressional pressure, (2) export controls on hardware (chips), (3) criminal prosecutions of smuggling, and (4) proposed sanctions legislation.

Why ?

You can use it with a browser via openrouter or on your linux box with Fabric or AI. I can access it with a Intel NUC online.

Are you planning on hosting a 700+GB DS-V4-Pro at home ?

Inspired by the @techman I’ve cancelled my perplexity subscription and am now running routine queries through OpenRouter. I feel like goldilocks just trying to find one that is “just right”.

Also inspired by @Belfry I have got a claude account and now understand why you just program in the console. I have yet to graduate to programming on the phone using voice commands but functionally that’s not much different to what I am currently doing in the console. It’s mainly a matter of reading what is suggested and then hitting, Yes.

WTG zeeclor!

I find that the Chinese leading models such as Deepseek-V4-pro are not much different to Claude Sonnet-4.6 except that Claude costs a lot more !

I had instant success configuring Weechat IRC manually, all by myself compared to using any of the leading AI models, all of which failed, so the human is still smarter/wiser than the AI imho.

All AI agents won’t work with all AI’s !!!

That said, the Opencode AI agent, is much like the ‘Claude Code’ one except its free, but there is a caveat.

One needs to consult the agent doc and make sure that the AI is on its ‘compatibility list’, to ensure that the AI strictly obeys the agent, because if the AI interprets the agent command of ‘ls’ as ‘rm rf /’ then that’s what it will do and nuke your install !

I’ve found that Opencode works perfectly with Deepseek and Claude-sonnet-4.6 but not with smaller locally run AI’s up to 70b in weight, so I stick with the largest online models thru openrouter for now, and life is smooth :slight_smile:

An ‘Agent’ is for coding right ?

No, you can do anything, make a cake recipe, check the PC logs, whatever. Just have a directory for that one task, and run the /init command in Opencode which will create the ‘Agents.md’ list of commands that you then add to by telling the AI things like this

Make me a grocery price scanner for Woolworths, that checks the prices of my favorite items every Tuesday at 6am Queensland time. Notify me by email when my favorite items are on special.

Keep a list of my favorite items, along with the date and their price in a sqlite database. Make a simple CLI reader to browse this data.

Also log all our conversations regarding this project in this working directory and name it ‘log.md’

Given a command like this, Opencode is what turns a chatbot in a terminal into a AI master programmer that lives only to do your bidding.

keyword: Ghostty

So you don’t need TMUX just to run Opencode, your editor (Vim etc) and a CLI in the one window .